Sunday, August 14th, 2011 05:15 pm
I'd like to point out that I am not having a crisis of confidence. This is merely a means of venting because someone posted a criticism on the fanfiction.net site but chose to do so anonymously, therefore removing my right of reply.

I've been told that my stories go nowhere, and are used only as a means to bash some characters and sanctify others, and that they won't be reading my stories anymore because of that.

Now, the person who posted the comment was not rude or nasty despite the rather blunt criticism. I'd like to say that right now, because I don't want anyone getting outraged on my behalf, and I know damn well that not everyone likes my stories, for various reasons. It just annoys me that they've made comments and not allowed me to respond to them via the pm system.

The comments were made in response to the chapter of WNSB that I posted yesterday, and clearly suggest that I've descended into blatant Gwen-bashing in it. Does anyone think I've done that? I would honestly like opinions, because I am trying hard to write Gwen realistically for this series, and I don't want it to come across as Gwen-bashing.

I'm just sad that someone out there has made a judgement like that without at least waiting for the story to be posted in its entirety.

No, I don't like Gwen and no, I don't make a secret of it. However, I want to write her in this series as she should have been portrayed in the show - as a flawed character with a capacity to learn from her mistakes. I warned that the story would not be Gwen-friendly, but have I let myself indulge in Gwen-bashing despite my best intentions?

Thoughts? Criticisms? Suggestions...?
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 07:46 am (UTC)
To me, accusations of bashing seem to happen frequently when writers veer into AU territory. Eg Ianto telling Gwen that her photo board isn't really relevant because it won't help with the problem at hand rather than just smiling and fading into the background like we saw in canon. Gwen responded to this criticism in a way that I think is reasonable considering her canon personality at the time, but some defenders will call that bashing because Gwen didn't react in a way that flatters her.

Canon has always glossed over Gwen's mistakes and flaws, Jack and the others allowed her to get away with much more because they were different people. You're coming at canon from a different direction in which Ianto made different choices and Jack had a different agenda and purpose. This made Tosh and Owen different people to those we met in canon but Gwen is the same person we saw. They're interacting differently.

I think you're doing a good job in trying to keep their personalities consistent with what we saw in canon while taking into account the different history they now have.
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 07:58 am (UTC)
I read the chapter you posted and really didn't see it as bashing at all. Like [personal profile] remuslives23 said, you are writing Gwen realistically as she was at that time in the show. The other characters have changed because of the circumstances that they lived through in your story, so their reactions to Gwen are different than what they were in canon and that really illuminates Gwen's own issues.
Unfortunately, what has been done with the show in canon has really divided fandom and I think that plays quite a bit into fans of Gwen being hyper sensitive to how she's written in fic. Which is very sad when you stop and think about it. Fandom is supposed to be a place where we all go to enjoy a show we all love and play around with "what if" scenarios.

It's supposed to be fun, damn it LOL

I also think if a person comments anonymously they don't deserve to be listened to as if they had a valid opinion. If you don't agree with something someone writes, fine, comment about it. But at least have the guts to stand up and acknowledge who you are.

Not everyone is going to like everything we write and that's fine. If they don't like it, they don't have to read it. Doesn't mean the rest of us won't read it and enjoy the hell out of it.

(Hope that all made sense..it's almost 1am here and my brain is mush after writing all day to make a deadline on Monday. Have written close to 5,000 words this evening and have more to do tomorrow!)
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 08:00 am (UTC)
I agree with RL23, even if I'm not quite caught up on the series

I would also like to add that as an author it's your choice what to write and how, just as it is up to us readers to read it or not, that comment was pointless, the person could have just stopped reading
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 08:11 am (UTC)
Firsty I think it is grossly unfair to accuse you that your stories go nowhere.

You have written two of the most exceptional trauma_recovery stories I have ever read and they were an inspiration for me to try and write one myself. Although I confess I am not sure I will ever come to close to Ashes and Dust as it is a stand alone as far as I can see in excellence.

It is one of the best jack/Ianto fanfiction stories I have ever read. And I am proud to say I have a pdf of WNSB and Ashes and Dust.

Secondly: no matter what someone writes in a review is just an opionion. And i will state out right that not allowing you right of reply is childish in the exteme.

It suggests that they have not followed the others stories in this series. The re-write of a series in a particuar alternate universe or vision from a particular writer is always fascianting. It gives new insights into the characters and allows topics not covered in cannnon to be explored. It is meat and potoatoes of fan fiction writing, I can think of at least twenty I have read.

In this WNSB universe Gwen needs to be treated differently because the history and relationship between Jack and Ianto and Tosh and Owen are different. Jack has a whole set of issues he is still heroically trying to over come. In that respect I dont see Gwen being bashed here.

Fiannly you did give fair warning how you would treat Gwen in your fic you are treating her honestly as you see her in the series. And that is your right as a writer to do so. Ive done it myself and will continue to do so if I feel in a particular fic it needs to be there. In a sense Gwen is a great character to write and she is very usefu.

Qualtiy is in the eye of the reader. YOu know deep in your heart how good you are. Dont let the petty ramblings of one person throw you.

many of us wait for each new chapter and seeing this here this weekend was wonderful and worth the wait

Regards Eva
Edited 2011-08-14 08:22 am (UTC)
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 08:46 am (UTC)
Hmm, how hard it can be to stop reading a story if you don't like? Even I can manage it.

But no, I don't see Gwen-bashing in this. She's just not indulged like in the series.
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 09:03 am (UTC)
I read yesterday's chapter, and I didn't think that was character bashing.

I think that the way Ianto reacted was in character for him, he knew Gwen wasn't perfect when he suggested Jack make her a member of the team. And I think that in a situation like that, asking her how that information that she has found helps them is perfectly alright. The same thing happened to me on Friday night when another medic and I were doing a physical examination on a patient's lower back, and he was questioning me on what the results we were getting meant. Ianto may have been more terse than we were, but then we weren't dealing with quite the same situation.

tl;dr No, it wasn't bashing, it was a perfectly fair interpretation of events as told from a particular POV. And with the backstory you've built with this series, it was exactly what would have happened.

Just to finish, I was so excited when I saw there was a new chapter of this up. I would have done a little dance, but it was past midnight, and my flatmates were sleeping. As to the idea that your stories don't go anywhere, I've read this series from the beginning, and have done so many times, and all of the characters have grown and changed so much. Rome wasn't built in a day, and Jack won't get over all that Torchwood did to him in a day either.

Whew, long comment. I'm not sure I've said everything I meant to, but if nothing else I hope you know that I love this series like burning.
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 09:41 am (UTC)
I don't think there is anything wrong with how you've treated Gwen, while I admit I don't like the character that has always partly down to her never being corrected on her mistakes. the result that this tale is looking at a different set of dynamics due to the back history of your verse means the characters dymnamics will be different.
I adore this verse because it is about both ther best and worst of humanity and how you cope with that Jack's story arc demonstrates that well and the fact that his rationale about not wanting to hire Gwen was all about his resulting issues wit authority and related personnel makes his reactions doubly understandable.
With fanfiction I take a similar approach to a book, if I don't like it I don't read any further. You on the other hand are a writer who I am always pleased to see updates from and where there is a PDF of a tale I have it stored so I don't need to go searching if I want to re read something, which I have done more than once with your tales.
I suppose I am saying this is a slow burn story arc, so don't let the nay sayers get you down
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 10:45 am (UTC)
I don't think you go too far. I think you get Gwen's personality just right for this point in the series. The other characters have changed and they're less willing to pander to her - and they treat her realistically. I don't see that as bashing at all.
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 01:02 pm (UTC)
I've always enjoyed the way you portray Gwen; I don't care for her, but your Gwen is true to the character. I think you also do a good job of allowing her room to grow without expecting us to buy that she's flawless all along. Your characterisation isn't purposefully malicious, but rather honest.
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 01:29 pm (UTC)
I will admit I have not actually read your chapter, but having read a ton of your stuff in the past I can't imagine you veering off into character bashing territory - that's not how you write. Plus, I've always felt anon commenters were cowardly and frankly bullies. If you can't own up to what you say then you have no business saying it.

*HUGS*
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 01:50 pm (UTC)
As I said in my review, I think you handle Gwen fairly even-handed. And, as the others above me have pointed out, the characters are different and are going to react to her differently this time around. I'm personally all for pointing out to Gwen that certain things she does, doesn't make sense; that she does manage to screw up; and that she's called down for certain things she does. If anything, canon is less realistic in this than fanfic because any other employer would have had Gwen up on the carpet for half of the things she does.

You shouldn't listen to just one reviewer: listen to the dozens you have that like what you're doing. It's hard ignoring that one bad review, even though it's one out of several. Just keep doing what you're doing; you're doing it very well.

As for your stories not going anywhere? Please...whoever said that was obviously not reading all the way to the end. *shakes head at the sometimes silliness of fandom*
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 01:58 pm (UTC)
You shouldn't pay any attention to anonymous criticisms, in fact, you should disable anonymous comments on that site. I've seen a lot of flaming going on over there.
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 02:29 pm (UTC)
Your stories a fantastic. Nothing wrong with them at all. As for Gwen bashing, I don't see it. I think you write her well. She's not perfect and shouldn't be written that way. She is my least favorite on the show and it FF, mostly because she's trying to bed everyone (except Ianto, go figure) while having a wonderful man at home. As Jack would say, just keep doing what your doing.
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 02:45 pm (UTC)
In one of my stories, I wrote Gwen as I saw her in canon. A newbie that didn't really understand what was going on in TW and had a bit of a high-opinion of herself. Gwen demanded actions from others and criticized them for not doing it when they refused. She saw the small picture while Jack had to look at the big picture. When she didn't get her way, she threw a temper tantrum. She grew up and learned. She changed along with the rest of the team.

I had one person ask me about Gwen-bashing in one of my stories, but they put their name on the comment so I could reply and explain my thoughts. Another person (anon) told me that I had crossed the line when I had Ianto hit Gwen in the face because her actions. Said that I was promoting violence towards women. It was critical to the storyline and it was turning point for Gwen to change/grow and become an equal partner in the team. (Besides, how many men has she hit because she was angry?)

My point is that I feel that you are writing her realistically for this story and what I feel was shown in canon. We, the fan-fic writers, can write Jack as an complete bastard, Ianto as a psycho, Owen as a complete idiot, and it's acceptable. But write Gwen in a bad light, we are accused of 'Gwen-bashing'.

Nope, you did not go too far. It's your story, your thoughts, your insight into Gwen and her relationship to your story.
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 08:05 pm (UTC)
I don't believe you've descended into Gwen bashing. You're simply addressing some of the weaknesses in her character, rather than just letting them slide. I think you've balanced it nicely by also pointing out some of her good qualities.

Really, the only time I've ever come across anything in one of your stories that had me at all uncomfortable that it might be leaning toward bashing was one section in your No Greater Gift story. Even then, I don't think it got to that point, it was just really easy to tell you don't like the character. *g* Wasn't a big deal, I simply skimmed the rest of that particular passage and went on.

To be honest, as someone who is not a fan of either Gwen or Ianto, I have a harder time with stories that try to turn Ianto into a saint than those that try to write Gwen honestly with her flaws intact and addressed.

I think you balance things well on both sides of that spectrum which is why I love your stories.
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 08:26 pm (UTC)
to the person who accused you of gwen bashing i suggest that they rewatch the show for true hardcore gwen bashing because there is nothing in this chapter that comes close to it. i admit to being amazed that the one episode most non gwen fans mention is combat which was written by noel clarke aka rose's poor boyfriend mickey a fact that escapes most gwen defenders. while the show writers allowed jack/ianto/tosh/owen to grow and change as time passed gwen stayed the same self involved child/woman yet that is the accepted canon that they defend.
i agree with gingerlr about writers who write non-canon jack/ianto/tosh/owen yet are not forced to defend their pov of their work. the only non 'gwen bashing' writer to ever feel the need to defend their work wrote a ianto and jack that few readers recognized as being ianto and jack. the writer felt they need to move their fic off the main ianto/jack site when it was pointed out that the site was for fans that liked ianto and jack yet at no time did the commenters suggest the writer had no right to write their stories unlike the pro-gwennies.
i love the fact that your stories allow gwen to become a better character and if the truth hurts................
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 09:16 pm (UTC)
First of all, and I say this with much love, disable annonymous comments. People without the guts to put their name - or at least the ability for the author to reply to them - behind their words don't deserve the right to post them or your sadness at their remarks.

In the context of this story, Gwen is very realistic. She's approaching this like a cop would - which she just was - but not thinking about what this tells them about the alien inside Carys and what they can do about it. If you look at the actual canon, had Carys not escaped Gwen's profiling would have done them no good at all.

Finally, your stories are well thought out and patient. They clearly 'go places,' even if some of them are not comfortable (child-like Jack exploring his sexuality, Ashes to Dust).

Perhaps she read the chapter without stopping to think - or look back - at what this Jack has been through (especially with the Cardiff PD).

Whatever the rationale, she lost the right to express it when she decided she wasn't brave enough to sign it.
Sunday, August 14th, 2011 11:56 pm (UTC)
I think you go a *little* bit into Gwen-bashing, which I think is justified in some ways by the story but not in others.

For instance, OK, Jack doesn't like cops, so his general unwillingness to have Gwen join is justified--but the *reason* that he doesn't like cops is (and yes, I know, I didn't say anything when you posted the chapter to begin with) is a bit...odd (odd inasmuch as I have a hard time believing that cops would use a person as target practice, let along for anything other than kill-shots)--and that makes it seem like you're coming up with an over-the-top reason for his dislike of her, and *that* makes it seem more like bashing.

Sorry, I write long sentences. :)

There are a few other instances. I'd have to go back and reread your earlier fics, but off the top of my head, her inability to understand that Jack wouldn't want her to touch him after being raped, or that Eleya really *didn't* want to be picked up (and I haven't read the latest chapter yet, but I saw a bit where she expressed severe skepticism that Ianto was the SiC because, as far as she could tell, he didn't "have any training). These things makes Gwen seem *far* more...vapid? self-centered? than she actually is. Gwen has an abundance of faults (making her one of two or three, I believe, TV characters I actively dislike) but she *is* empathic, observant, and actually quite good at being a cop. After all, she's clearly smart enough to shake off the Retcon, which apparently can happen among the very intelligent, and was able to recognize Susie's knife as being the murder weapon, even though she couldn't have really seen it for more than a few seconds and didn't get a real opportunity to study it. She just has a lot of personality flaws which are made worse by the show's writer's constantly saying "You MUST like Gwen, or else!"

That being said: You're not blatantly bashing Gwen. I've seen *really* bad bashing fics, and you're nowhere near them. I think that in a *few* cases your dislike of her bleeds out into the character's minds, but as long as you're *trying* to write her fairly, that should be enough.

Monday, August 15th, 2011 04:12 pm (UTC)
ETA: But that being said: I really like your fics, and they're some of the best h/c fics I've ever read.
Monday, August 15th, 2011 02:50 am (UTC)
Out of curiosity, I went to FF.net to check out that comment for myself. In case you haven't gone back to look, it's not listed as anonymous anymore. Her username is on it, and I think if you go to her listing there and read through it, you'll have very little trouble dismissing her comment as the ludicrous rubbish it is. I won't name names, but I think it's worth you taking a look. I also won't give my opinion of the few things she's written, none of it current nor Torchwood, because I honestly just can't come up with the words to describe it. Someone, somewhere may be totally enthralled by her writing, but I seriously doubt it. I would be very disbelieving of anyone who says they actually take her seriously. It is possible her writing skills have improved in the last nine years, but reading her comment, I'd have to say, not so much.

As to your fic being Gwen bashing, I've read that, and this most definitely is NOT it. Also, if your fics lead nowhere, then lead on and I will gladly follow.

*I certainly do not mean this comment to cause you problems, and I don't know that it would, but feel free to delete it if you think it might*

Monday, August 15th, 2011 05:57 pm (UTC)
just read the latest chapter (SO GLAD for this post because i'd MISSED IT when it posted!) and it's NOT Gwen bashing. I don't mind Gwen as a character generally, so i think i can say that with some reasonable level of certainty. I don't like bashing stories in GENERAL (regardless of what character is being bashed) and if this was "bashing" i wouldn't be reading it! And i'm LOVING it! And as for "sanctifying" other characters - Ianto as you write him is just as flawed but, as he has a stability gained from saving/loving/caring for Jack, he's much more even keeled about his own limitations and willing to be told he's WRONG and move on from it. That's not "sanctifying" that's called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT! ::grin::

Is it a COMFORTABLE portrayal of Gwen? NO. BUT - think about her in the early cannon. She was spoiled, out of her depth, completely convinced that this "group of misfits" was completely out of touch with humanity/life outside TW. She was the typical "i know best" newbie who has the best of intentions, but not the best in the way of follow-through. She means well, but CONTINUALLY sticks her foot in it. That REALLY comes across in your story and, as others have commented before me, because the four older TW characters have a DIFFERENT DYNAMIC because of their different backstories/interactions, they aren't cutting her the slack they did in cannon. They are more aware of the connections between the four of them, of the world outside their own heads/histories/problems, and so they aren't going to just sit back and TAKE IT from Gwen. (especially Ianto who WOULD be more willing to take a stand not only because of his protectiveness of Jack - but because he ISN'T trying to fade into the background to keep Lisa safe and hidden)

AND you're showing a Gwen who is (slowly) willing to learn from her own mistakes (even if she DOES have to be smacked with the "don't assume you know everything about what's going on because sometimes things are a LOT different than they might appear!" stick). It will be interesting to see how things goes from here and to see how you develop Gwen, including her "fit" with the rest of the team. This team has some major but subtle differences from cannon, and i can't WAIT to see how you play that out.

OH... and as for the "going nowhere" on your stories... WHAT THE HELL EVER! You're stories are some of the most powerful "recovery" stories have have read. They explore relationships, healing, love, and overcoming tragedies with the help of those who care for you. If that's what the annon poster thinks is "going nowhere" i'd be interested to see what it would take to go "somewhere" in his/her opinion.

so, in summary: You haven't strayed over into bashing (we, your readers, would have told you if you had, i'm pretty sure). You're stories go AMAZING places. And the annon poster should be ignored while you write us more wonderful fic. ::BIG mausy grin::

Pax,
the kendermaus/kendermouse
Thursday, August 18th, 2011 07:01 pm (UTC)
First, I'm sorry that I've never given feedback on WNSB before. I found it only over the weekend and then, well, mainlined it all a bit and I'm loving it.

You know, it's been a while since I watched Day One, but, if I recall correctly, you haven't actually got Gwen doing anything out-of-character, because almost all of what Gwen does in that chapter is what she actually did in the episode. Like I believe someone else has already said, she's the same person -- the difference is in how the rest of the characters are reacting to her. So, what? It's bashing because Jack, who has in this universe got well-documented reasons for dislike of the police and a well-documented backstory for why he was wary of hiring Gwen, is not immediately falling at her feet? Or it's bashing because Ianto has behaved in a manner inconsistent with how he was represented in the beginning of Series 1, but in a manner entirely consistent with how Ianto was represented post-Countrycide and particularly post-Series 1. Jesus, people.

You are not Gwen-bashing. You are presenting her as the realistic and flawed human being she always was, but without the expectation that we were constantly hit over the head with in the series, which was that those flaws should actually be seen as merits. If that is character-bashing, then RTD spent two years doing it with everyone else.
Saturday, August 20th, 2011 07:34 am (UTC)
Anon obviously hasn't watched S4E7 where Gwen finally spills.